Servo problem/upgrade?

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chiefcapri2.8
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Servo problem/upgrade?

Post by chiefcapri2.8 »

Hi guys,
I'm looking for some thoughts/advice on a brake issue with my 2.8i.
Problem is the brakes seem below par to me and i'm feeling that there might be a problem with the servo, either knackered or not getting enough vacuum.
I'm running standard 9" rear drums, and 4pot wilwood calipers at the front with 283mm drilled and grooved discs. I've already upgraded the master cylinder to the 23.8mm granada item to compensate for the larger piston area.
The pedal feels hard, so that counts out fluid problems, but there seems a long travel and not much bite? The front wheels have never locked, even in the wet, and whereas i know locked wheels aren't a good idea, at least it would reassure me that the brakes are working!
I would have thought my set up would have given me some bloody good stoppers, but having never driven the car with standard brakes i've got nothing to compare it to.

Is there a way/method of checking the servo and vacuum? I've read in a tuning bible that some engine mods reduce manifold vacuum. With my fast road cam and induction kit, have i lost my vacuum?

I'm planning some engine mods this summer that will mean i lose the manifold vacuum take-off completely, so does anyone have any experience/advice/pics of fitting an electric or electro-hydraulic assisted master cylinder to a capri?

Any thoughts greatly appreciated!!
Many thanks,
Keith



csr
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Post by csr »

Your problem is that you are using components that do not work together.

Amongst people who know about brakes, Wilwood is viewed as a bit of a joke.
Allthough the actual calipers are not that bad, it's the way they are used which is the problem.
Wilwood make cheap alloy calipers.
Other people with little knowledge put kits together and sell them to people who
think they are getting a good brake system when in fact, they are getting a pile of bit that bolt together.
If it all works, that's a bonus but by no means guaranteed.
as you now now?

It's unlikely that you have a larger piston area in the Wilwood calipers
which is why the larger master cylinder has made things worse.
Larger piston sizes are available but not sold in the common kits.
If you let me know the piston sizes, I can check.

I would also think that the rears are not adjusted correctly which is where all your lost travel is.

The 2.8 will produce more than enough vacuum to run the servo.
The cam has to have huge overlap to cause any problems and your not
even close to that.
The "induction kit" whatever that is? will have no bearing on things.

Why will you loose the vacuum take off in the summer?
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chiefcapri2.8
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Post by chiefcapri2.8 »

Hi csr,
Thanks for your reply, i'm slightly annoyed at the moment because i feel i might have been 'sold a kipper' as far as these brakes are concerned. I bought them from RallyDesign, whom i thought would have been a reputable company, the 'technical expert' on the phone seemed to know what he was talking about when he sold me the kit, but now i find it probably totally inadequate.
After a trip down the garage i've measured the piston size as 35mm, which gives a total area of 3848mm2 (per side of car), i've just read that single piston sliding calipers should be consider as twin pots, so the original Capri calipers had an area of 5655mm2! Can't believe that an 'expert' sold me a kit that is less effective than the original calipers, which were crap to start with!!! Starting to boil over a little bit here!

I doubt i'm the first person, or the last, who will get stung, but i'm not rich and i'm certainly not stupid, but i feel like i've been conned out of my hard earned cash.....

Unfortunately, as it goes with long restoration projects, the kit was bought in a rush of blood to the head some 3 years ago whilst the car was still a shell, so i doubt i have any comeback with the supplier.

So, taking a deep breath, i'm ready for the solution.
The 'induction kit' is an Orthus-style aluminium air box with a large k&n bucket filter on (came with the car). The cam is a Kent VT21. I'm happy to accept your view that this wouldn't effect the vacuum because i would've thought a lot of other people run a similar setup without problems.
I can see now how fitting the 23.8mm granada cylinder has probably made things worse.

I've kept up to date with all the threads on the Caprisport brake kits but never thought i would need one because i thought i had a decent kit ready and waiting. Now i think i need one.
So if you wouldn't mind going over old ground for me, what is a suitable Caprisport kit for a fast road capri, keeping the standard rear drums, possibly keeping the 283mm discs and 23.8mm matesr cylinder already fitted?

I'm going to lose the engine vacuum in the summer because i'm going to junk the plenum in favour of throttle bodies. Any suggestions where i could replace the vacuum from?

Sorry for the long post, had a bit of a rant there!

csr
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Post by csr »

Wish I had a quid every time I had this conversation.

It's a sad fact that there are no "technical experts" at Rally Design.
Like a lot of these suppliers, you have to know what you are buying because
they certainly don't know what they are selling.

The 54mm M16 is about 22 sq cm - that eaquals 38mm in an eaqual piston 4 pot.
That's a point to note as well - proper 4 pot calipers have un-eaqual pistons.

To work correctly with rear discs / Sierra calipers, the area needs to be more like 28 sq cm - about 42mm diameter.

Having said that, Tony is running the Turbo Coupe calipers at 35 and 40 with
rear discs and it works well. Actually, that's not completely true - it's f-kin awesome!!

Everything about the original Capri brake system is wrong - the disc is too small
for the weight and performance of the car, it's too flat so warps easily and its on the
wrong end of the hub so it can't loose the heat into the wheel.

The only solution that will improve things is to start again.
Sell the kit you have to an Escort fancier - they don't know any better and seem
happy to pay crazy money for old crap.

All the details of the GTR systems are on the web pages www.caprisport.com

Now - the engine - please tell me you are not going to waste money on the 2.8?
Please tell me you are getting rid of the boat anchor in favour of a proper engine which
will be worth spending some money on - anything - 2.9 12V - 24V - Rover V8 - Mondeo TDCI
anything - just don't waste a penny on the nasty German Accountant designed
cost cut boat anchor?

Sorry if your're reading this and you have one of the extremely rare good 2.8's.
Have faith - hang in there - one day you will drive a Capri with a proper engine and you'll
realise just what you've been missing.
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chiefcapri2.8
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Posts: 24
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Post by chiefcapri2.8 »

Hi csr,
Many thanks for the reply again.
Thank you for your concern over my engine, i have to admit i've read a lot of the threads concerning the 2.8 and have never really understood everybody's problem with it. Mine goes like a train and scares the pants off me, like you say perhaps i have one of the 'rare' good ones, but now for the first time i'm seriously thinking of swapping (perhaps it's the brakes that are scary not the engine?!).....

I've had a good look on the Caprisport website at the options, to be honest i just don't fancy a rover v8, i love the v8kid's car (is that Tony?) but think it's a bit extreme for what i'm after. I'd like to keep it ford, saying that though i don't like how the 2.9 fits the engine bay, after a painstaking resotration and full bare metal respray, i don't want to go cutting into the wings!

However, the cosworth v6 has really grabbed my attention, i've seen it before and read about it on the forum, but i was never fussed about it until now. Now i'm thinking that with the addition of the correct Caprisport brakes, a cosworth conversion would be a good match. I've always stayed with the 2.8 for 'originality' and the 'standard fit' look, but the cossy engine looks perfect in the capri bay!

I should probably start this in the 'Engine Swaps' area, but which car should i start scouring the breakersyards for? On the Caprisport website it says of the 2.9 engine, that the auto ones weren't as 'spirited' as the manuals. Does this apply to the 24v engines as well, or would an auto granada cosworth be a good donor car for instance?

I've emailed Caprisport, only about the brakes though, i didn't want to write a page long email and bore them to death with my woes! But i appreciate that they have full time jobs so might not be able to reply for a while, i've got a very good breakers near me though and have chance to land on a granada cosworth AND some fiat calipers (for the Caprisport 315 kit!!) this week if i move quickly!

If you could offer any more valuable advice it would be very much appreciated!

Coops
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Post by Coops »

chiefcapri2.8 wrote:
I've had a good look on the Caprisport website at the options, to be honest i just don't fancy a rover v8, i love the v8kid's car (is that Tony?) but think it's a bit extreme for what i'm after.
Yup that be MEEEEEE :lol:
and in a previous post CSR is right the brakes on mine are fkin awsome :wink:
the only problem now is i have the risk of getting the car written off by braking so late on the road now and cars behind thinking they can out brake me and nearly hit me up the arse :cry:
Regards Tony C (COOPS)
Image
MS2 V3.57 Ecu mapable efi and wasted spark ignition.
Rotrex C38-91 supercharger and Cossie RS500 Intercooler @ 14psi of Boost.
Sponsored by: www.extraefi.co.uk & www.interpart.biz & www.caprisport.com
Web site: http://www.capriracing.co.uk

chiefcapri2.8
Newbie
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:44 pm

Post by chiefcapri2.8 »

Hi Tony,
Yeah i can see how that could be a problem!! I had a really good chat with Neil at Caprisport the other night and he was talking about your brake set up, i think he use the phrase "f###ing awesome" more than once!
I'm on the hunt now for some fiat calipers, got some granada calipers cheap already so if i can't source the brembo's i'll fall back on the GTR280 route.
I've got the cosworth conversion bug now as well so it looks like my 2.8 engine is up for sale. It's got a pretty good spec (3005cc capacity, stage 2 unleaded heads, kenlow fan, mocal oil cooler, Orthus induction kit, Kent VT21 cam, list goes on) but somehow i doubt i'll see much of my investment back.... I'm wondering how best to sell it on, do you reckon kitcar/trike owners might be more interested than the capri crowd?? Not unless there's a 1.6/2.0 owner out there who fancies it? Oh well, probably just have to take my chances on eBay....

Anyway, can't wait to empty the engine bay so i can fill it with cosworth!
Regards,
Keith

Coops
Site Admin & Owner
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Posts: 604
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:59 pm
Location: Compton, Nr Newbury, Berkshire Drives: Supercharged 4.6 efi V8 Capri
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Post by Coops »

advertise on flea bay mate and capri classifieds on the forums also.

i have had the pleasure to work with Neil and Jon at CP on doing a cossie conversion, and they do know there stuff,
I also had the pleasure to be the first person to drive the cossie cappa i helped with, its such a nice conversion, drives sweet and got plenty of oooomffff when you need it,
if the v8 dies im tempted to do a 24V cossie cappa,
Regards Tony C (COOPS)
Image
MS2 V3.57 Ecu mapable efi and wasted spark ignition.
Rotrex C38-91 supercharger and Cossie RS500 Intercooler @ 14psi of Boost.
Sponsored by: www.extraefi.co.uk & www.interpart.biz & www.caprisport.com
Web site: http://www.capriracing.co.uk

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